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#12927253 Dec 17, 2016 at 04:49 PM · Edited 9 months ago
241 Posts
Initially I decided to just make a quick Vengeance Juggernaut rotation guide, but it quickly evolved into a more comprehensive guide for new and experienced players alike. I have a tendency to lose control like that. So without further ado:



PVE: PLAYING THE JUGGERNAUT

Since 4.x Juggernauts has undergone a few changes. The two biggest being Chilling Scream becoming a very powerful dot (and AoE ability) and the other being Ravage becoming a not-quite-as-powerful filler while also being reduced to an instant ability, requiring a total makeover of previous rotations. It does allow you to stay mobile now though.
What is still mostly the same though, are the pros/cons of playing a Juggernaut.

PROS

Defensive Cooldowns: Above average defensive cooldowns makes you good at surviving mechanics and makes you a decent off-tank when needed.

Single Target DPS: Decent single target damage, above average as well, but nowhere near the titans that are IO Mercs, Maras and Snipers.

AoE DPS: Arguably the best AoE damage in the game. Juggernaut AoE is even better than before due to Chilling Scream.

Mobility: Now a very mobile class due to permanent 35% movement bonus due to Chilling Scream and removal of channeled Ravage. Also with quite a few ranged abilities. Add to that the old Mad Dash and Force Charge plus Intercede, and you have on your hands a very mobile class.

Mechanic Abuse: Saber Reflect, while no longer being a unique mechanic, can still give you an edge on DPS on many fights and help you survive certain mechanics.

Area Damage Reduction: With 60% situational AoE damage reduction Juggernauts are up there with Snipers: you can take a hit if you know the fights well enough to predict the big raid-wide area damage, thus making life a lot easier for your healers or even getting a few more melee hits in before you have to run out of the fire.

CONS

No burst: With no offensive cooldowns aside from Adrenal and with a truly sustained DPS rotation relying on dots and being no longer than 12 seconds per segment. Add to that the absence of hard hitting abilities outside auto-crit impale from the 6 piece set-bonus, there's no burst to be found here for those high DPS over short duration mechanics.

Low Raid Utility: Aside from being an offtank and having a guard, Juggernauts have nothing to provide your team members. By removing the speed bonus to others from Chilling Scream, Juggernauts are now completely out of tricks that affect fellow raiders. The only exception is Intercede, but this isn't worth using on tanks due to the threat drop, and not worth using on others for a low damage reduction. Rather stay in there and do your damage.


So now that that's out of the way, I spent a couple of days on figuring out the new optimal rotation, and I am fairly confident I've got it down.
If you have watched my 4.x theory lesson on Juggernauts and Assassins, you might know that I have a habit of going a bit too deep into detail. If anything seems redundant or is too convoluted to understand, please do not hesitate to call it out so I can get my head out of my butt and explain my muddled mind better :)



TERMS AND ABBREVIATIONS

So first of all I want to get a few terms and abbreviations down to make reading a bit easier:

On Cooldown: When I say 'used on cooldown' I mean used as soon as it comes off cooldown, so that it doesn't stand waiting around in your hotbars ready for use, but pushed back due to other abilities. Max usage equals max dps.

Clipping: Reapplying a dot before the previous one has run out. Or using a rage generator while at a rage level that means that rage points gets lost (pushed above 12).

RNG: Random Number Generator. Common term for anything that is based on chance. More specifically if any part of a rotation needs to be improvised depending on a random proc etc..

Proc: Another common term that most probably have heard before. A proc is short for procent chance (activation). Ie. any ability that requires certain random conditions to be met before being activated.

GCD: Global CoolDown. When I mention this I am referring to the total cooldown calculated in number of abilities used before it becomes available again. More specifically it means the cooldown you get on all your abilities after using any ability. The duration is 1.5 seconds, reduced by alacrity. Because of this it is an efficient way to determine rotation lengths since the actual time will vary depending on your amount of alacrity, while the amount of ability activations will stay the same.

DPGCD: Damage Per Global CoolDown, ie. how much damage one activation of an ability deals over it's entire rotation. This helps decide which fillers you want to use first.

Precast: An ability that is cast or initiated cast before combat begins. This means that it only actually hits the second combat begins (if timed right in a group) or initiates combat itself. This means that the cast time is free dps since you are already casting your next ability after combat starts.

AoE: For the few of you who is not familiar with this term: Area of Effect. Ie. an ability that hits multiple targets.

SA = Sundering Assault. The main rage generator. Core abilities should be used on cooldown. 8 GCD
ST = Saber Throw. Secondary rage generator. Using this ability is a dps loss. Keep usage to a minimum.
MD = Mad Dash. The only ability in the Juggernaut arsenal that can be precast. Will explain further later.
CS = Chilling Scream. Great dot, ignores armor, applies as AoE. 8 sec duration = 6 GCD
VS = Vengeful Slam. AoE ability, great damage, core ability. 6 GCD
FS = Force Scream. A bleed dot, core ability. 6 GCD
Im = Impale. A bleed dot, core ability. 6 GCD
Sh = Shatter. Powerful bleed dot, core ability. 8 GCD
Rav = Ravage. Decent filler, but low DPGCD after 5.0. 8 GCD (procs on Shatter)
Hew = Hew. Best filler. Only RNG part of Juggernaut rotation. Approximately 14 GCD



ROTATION OPENER

So the opener I use now exclusively is very similar to one of my old rotation openers (I had several different possible openers to pick from before 5.0. This used to be subpar, now it is the best). It opens as follows:

(precast before combat) Vengeful Slam x2 --> (precast) Mad Dash --> Sundering Assault --> Adrenal + Force Scream --> Enrage + Shatter --> Impale

Before combat starts, you use the two Vengeful Slams to build your Savagery stacks, making Force Scream auto crit. Force Scream also procs your 6piece set-bonus, making Impale Auto Crit. Shatter is your most powerful ability in terms of DPGCD and is as such used early.
The reason for Mad Dash as an opener, is the fact that, as mentioned earlier, MD is the only ability you can precast as a Juggernaut; as long as you make sure you are standing at 19-21 meters away from the target, you will be able to open with the hit from MD the second combat begins and already be able to use your next ability: free damage.
Another upside of this opener is that it flows perfectly into the general rotation, allowing all your abilities with a cooldown to be used as they become available and all your dots to have as much uptime as possible.



MAIN ROTATION

The main difficulty with this rotation is rage management. Especially in a raid environment where you will gain extra rage from AoE, or lose rage from not being able to get to melee range to use SA. This is where your skill as a player comes into play: everybody can learn a rotation, the hard part is improvising over said rotation without messing it up completely. In regards to this, this rotation is quite punishing if you mess it up.

Now, I have decided to sort into three rows, each beginning with a Sundering Assault. The opener except for Mad Dash is also included in this. It is worth noting that many of the abilities are in a static position; only VS, FS and Im change position.

Sundering Assault --> Force Scream --> Shatter --> Impale --> Chilling Scream --> Vengeful Slam --> filler --> Force Scream.
Sundering Assault --> Impale --> Shatter --> Vengeful Slam --> Chilling Scream --> Force Scream --> filler --> Impale.
Sundering Assault --> Vengeful Slam --> Shatter --> Force Scream --> Chilling Scream --> Impale --> filler --> Vengeful Slam.

And using abbreviations for a better overview:

SA -> FS -> Sh -> Im -> CS -> VS -> filler -> FS
SA -> Im -> Sh -> VS -> CS -> FS -> filler -> Im
SA -> VS -> Sh -> FS -> CS -> Im -> filler -> VS

The fillers are in order of priority:

Hew --> Ravage --> Saber Throw --> Force Push

Yes, this means you will skip a Ravage now and then. Don't worry, it takes some getting used to, but Ravage is a pretty low damage ability now and it will not hurt your DPS.



ROTATION FILLERS

Using this rotation you will use every single ability on cooldown and have 'almost' 100% (actually it's closer to 66%... but still...) uptime of CS.
The downside, as mentioned earlier, is the rage management. Using this rotation will give you a total rage gain of 25, and rage consumption of 30 (disregarding the fillers) over a duration of 24 GCDs or what is approximately equal to 30-36 seconds. As you might have figured, this leaves you short of rage by 5 and it is up to the player to use his/her skillz to fix the rage to make the rotation work.
Now, the tools you have to fix your rage are few:

Hew:
Hew, which gives you one rage when it procs. Since the proc is random you can count on having at least 1 usage per rotation. Possibly 2. And rarely 3. This is also usable as a finisher, which I will discuss a bit later. Overall, aside from your three main abilities (FS, Im, Sh) this is your hardest hitting ability. And it's got 30 meter range to boot.

Enrage:
The second tool is obviously Enrage. Enrage has a cooldown of 45 seconds = 30 GCDs. This is almost enough to use it once per rotation, but not quite, making it undependable since there is no fixed point to use it. The biggest issue with using Enrage is not clipping your rage, but on the other hand you don't want to sit on it too much while waiting for the perfect moment to use it.
Best case scenario is using it on cooldown, while not clipping rage at all. Most realistic scenario for an experienced player is using it withing 3-4 GCD of it coming off cooldown and not clipping more than 2 rage.
In short use it as much as possible without ruining your rotation.

Saber Throw:
The last tool is Saber Throw. This, at first glance, looks to be a great ability: decent damage, 30 meters range, provides 3 rage. For PvP I would agree. For PvE it is your main source of DPS loss. Use this ability only in emergencies or when you are unable for one reason or another to get into melee range and have all other range abilities on cooldown (an experienced player will make sure this never happens by knowing the fights and planning accordingly).


I think this is about it folks :) I will include a rotation for AoE at some point if there is a demand, but for now this is what you get. I might edit in things if I realize I forgot to mention them.
I hope this guide helps at least a little bit, and if there is any confusion I am always open to questions. Just reply here, catch me in-game or send me a PM.

Alternatives

Saber Throw as an opener:
Sometimes there's a boss where you can't use mad dash as an opener (for example if they are not actually on the ground yet). This is the one situation where you can be served well with a saber throw. Simply open with saber throw if the boss is not accessible right from the beginning and push Enrage back a few GCDs. Most of the bosses in DP comes to mind.

Alternative rage-heavy rotation:
One thing is making a rotation for Dummy Parses; raid situation-based rotations are another deal altogether. Juggernauts have several ways to gain rage aside from SA: taking single target damage (including dots), being stunned (utility) and taking AoE damage (utility) are all ways to pad your rage meter. If you know for certain that you are about to engage a fight that meets one of these conditions, you can change the rotation by simply switching all uses of VS for CS and vice versa. This will make it slightly more rage heavy, but does provide a true 100% uptime on CS for a DPS gain.
Sometimes, if the damage taken is excessive you might even switch out a SA for an extra filler (Ravage for example) or push Enrage further back if you know there's gonna be a need for it later. Whatever you judge the best DPS gain.

Finisher:
At 30% you will have access to additional uses of Hew. This will be a DPS gain, but it will starve you for rage really fast. Only do it if you know you can maintain your rotation, in which case they should replace Ravage and/or Vengeful Slams.
At around 5% you should abandon the use of Shatter and Chilling Scream and focus on instant heavy hitters in this priority: Hew -> Impale -> Force Scream -> Vengeful Slam -> Ravage. If you run out of abilities to use, use Shatter for more Ravage.
+6
#12928728 Dec 18, 2016 at 10:55 AM · Edited 9 months ago
241 Posts
Reserved for part 2: utilities and AoE rotations
+1
#12963803 Jan 04, 2017 at 06:02 PM
Shadow Squadron
25 Posts
At first, I would like to congratulate and thank you for this great guide.

I have went through it, and even put it into my spreadsheet (for theorycrafting purposes), and it looks solid.
(Just my own OCD cannot let me start with sundering assault, but i can see the obvious reason to do so)

According to theorycrafting, and my own feel of the advanced class, it's very hard to make rotation for something, which is mostly feeling based (at least for me).

What realy got was your opener. Thanks for that!

With the rest, I can mostly agree. Up to a point about burst. Yes, we have no on demand burst like some other classes (especially in pvp), but in PvE, most of the burst phases last around ~30 seconds. And inside of that time, you can deal as much damage as the burst classes (sometimes more).
-Exception could be Revans droid, where you can prioritize heavy hitters.

Guys, do not forget, that yes, while we are dot spec, our dots are only small part of our damage, and we actualy have some heavy hitting abilities which proc the dots. So, in case of needed burst in short timespan (let's say 5seconds, or 3gcds), you have crit of force scream, impale, hew/slam).


In case you know some serious burst will be needed, you can even precast some dots on target (if possible), like piercing chill and shatter, so they keep ticking while burst.
(mostly on bubled sorces, or some bosses in pve)

Those were my 2 cents. Overall, GJ zee.

Regarding opener, Rydarus hints to avoid 3 dot opener with words:
The TRIPLE DOT OPENER that is becoming popular is WRONG. If you do that, the DoTs become misaligned later on. You absolutely must have this spacing of abilities for no ability to ever have to be delayed.

he uses opener:
ST>Leap>Im>Rav>VS>Sh>FS>Hew>Im>SS>VS

What is your opinion about that?
+1
#12964465 Jan 04, 2017 at 10:21 PM · Edited 6 months ago
241 Posts
#12963803 winky wrote:

At first, I would like to congratulate and thank you for this great guide.

I have went through it, and even put it into my spreadsheet (for theorycrafting purposes), and it looks solid.
(Just my own OCD cannot let me start with sundering assault, but i can see the obvious reason to do so)

According to theorycrafting, and my own feel of the advanced class, it's very hard to make rotation for something, which is mostly feeling based (at least for me).

What realy got was your opener. Thanks for that!

With the rest, I can mostly agree. Up to a point about burst. Yes, we have no on demand burst like some other classes (especially in pvp), but in PvE, most of the burst phases last around ~30 seconds. And inside of that time, you can deal as much damage as the burst classes (sometimes more).
-Exception could be Revans droid, where you can prioritize heavy hitters.

Guys, do not forget, that yes, while we are dot spec, our dots are only small part of our damage, and we actualy have some heavy hitting abilities which proc the dots. So, in case of needed burst in short timespan (let's say 5seconds, or 3gcds), you have crit of force scream, impale, hew/slam).


In case you know some serious burst will be needed, you can even precast some dots on target (if possible), like piercing chill and shatter, so they keep ticking while burst.
(mostly on bubled sorces, or some bosses in pve)

Those were my 2 cents. Overall, GJ zee.

Regarding opener, Rydarus hints to avoid 3 dot opener with words:
The TRIPLE DOT OPENER that is becoming popular is WRONG. If you do that, the DoTs become misaligned later on. You absolutely must have this spacing of abilities for no ability to ever have to be delayed.

he uses opener:
ST>Leap>Im>Rav>VS>Sh>FS>Hew>Im>SS>VS

What is your opinion about that?



First about the burst. I completely agree with what you are saying; most classes have total rotations dot rotations of 12 sec (Juggs), 15 secs (Sorcs/Sins) 21 Secs (Snipers/Mercs) just to take a couple of examples. Only PTs have more than 30 seconds if I remember correctly. What one has to remember is the definition of burst in PvE and the definition of burst in PvP. This is of course not mentioned in my guide so any confusion is quite understandable :)
Basically: In PvP you determine the burst with how much damage you can dish out in the shortest time possible in order to deny your target the possibility of saving themselves with heals or cooldowns. In PvE you don't see bosses healing up or using cooldowns so burst starts to get a new meaning. Even the normal 'burst' classes like Deception Assassin that are using purely 'bursty' abilities in their rotation will have to conform to the definition of PvE burst, which is the ability to temporary increase your sustained DPS for a burst phase. This phase can last from anything like 10 seconds to a minute.
In this regard Juggernauts is behind for the sole reason of having absolutely no offensive cooldowns that can enable them to dish out more than the average 9k DPS, where an Assassin who would also do 9k average DPS can increase this to very high amounts if they line up their cooldowns. If you look at any parse you will see the big numbers in the beginning due to players having all cooldowns available and then you will see it evening out for the rest of the fight despite said cooldowns being used again. Rarely will you see the average DPS fluctuate more than 200-300 on any given time in the middle of a parse.
In a raid environment where you know there is a burst phase coming up you will not be using your cooldowns as they become available as you would have done on a dummy parse, thereby by saving them enabling you to recreate the burst you see in the beginning of any parse.
In these scenarios you will rarely see a Juggernaut get above 10k DPS unless they are really lucky, but Assassins and Snipers will continuously do around 15-20k (slight exaggeration, point still stands) in the first few seconds.
I hope this clears up what I mean by Juggernauts not having any burst :)


In regards to the dot rotation, if you have watched my Juggernaut teaching event from before 5.0 you will get a few examples of different rotations and openers I used back then. Many of these will still work and all of them have perfect alignment of dot abilities.
As Rydarus states in his comment, his opener will also have these dots align, but he is wrong by claiming this is the only opener which achieves this.
The opener I use for my current rotation will also have perfect alignment of all abilities.

I really appreciate the feedback though :) thanks for taking the time to write a response!
+3
#13402559 Aug 19, 2017 at 12:09 PM
1 Post
Thanks for this, I just respec'd my Jugg to Vengeance and this was very helpful.
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